Round 7: TITANS v BRONCOS (2023)

[gotitans101_]

You know what they say about sarcasm right?

I'm glad to hear your happy to accept the 658th time in a row this team has folded like a deck chair to the Broncos at half time.

There's a lot of denial in this forum if anyone is pretending like there's much positive to take out of that game. Sure the first half was good but most alarmingly it is clear we still lack any resilience as a group as soon as the tide turns. We are downhill skiers only.

No wonder we are a losing club, even most of our fans seem content with history repeating itself over and over, snd not in a good way.

Here's hoping that the losing stench that permeates deeply through this club may one day be removed. It looks doubtful though.

Holbrook sucks!

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Don't you realise we should be circle-jerking because we put a good 35 minutes together?

The trouble with all those positives is they don't mean jack if you can't string them together for the full 80. As we all saw in that Broncos game the other night. And last year. And the year before that. An injury-hit Dolphins side only lost to them by 6 points in the last 10 minutes of the game just a few weeks ago.

 

[Whats Doing]

I am of the view that we have shown much better resilience this year than in the past with our starting lineup in the main. The real problem with the team is that there is a huge gulf in talent between the starting props and the bench.

The Broncos had Hass playing 70 minutes straight who is able to play at a high standard for long periods of time (he would have played the full 80 if the game was tight) and it was very noticable that when either Tino or Mo came off and when they were both off at the same time, then our bench middles really struggled to contain him, Carrigan who also played 60+ minutes and the other forwards down the middle of the field.

Yes the errors cost us big time in terms of points scored against but when the bench middles came on, the pressure on our defence was enormous and when this happens, and when you are under this amount of pressure, mistakes are made on both sides of the ball. I am not saying this was the only reason for the 2nd half fade out but it was a large contributing factor.

It is this gulf in talent in the middle rotation that we need to fix and yes we are currently without JJ for an extended period of time, but the Broncos (with Hass, Flegler, Tapau, Jensen) and the leading teams do not have such a big gap in middles playing ability. Penrith have Fisher Harris, Leota, Lenui and Eisenhuth. When you have quality props and a quality lock (such as Carrigan and Yeo for the Broncos and Penrith) you need good quality middles both in your starting lineup and on the bench.

I am of the view that when we let go 3 middles last year (and yes they were not what we required) and recruited only 1 (Stimson) and were reliant on the backups which are a long way short of NRL standard at the moment (Vuna, Izaac, McIntyre at a pinch) then we would be in trouble during the year. With injuries and Tino to be out for at least 3 games with SOO, we were always going to struggle down the centre of the park in quite a number of games this year unless we recruited another NRL quality middle.

The club has recognised this deficiency with the recent acquisition of Mikaele and hopefully this will help but I would also be moving Stimson back into the front row rotation to help our defence down the centre and reduce the gap in playing ability of our middles during games when Tino and Mo come off.

I am not despondent as others as I definitely see a big improvement in resilience and goal line defence this year. The club is moving in the right direction with our junior recruitment being a primary recruitment source as it is rich in talent but at the moment we are still a couple of years away to see the real benefits of this approach. This is a longer process in terms of time frames but if achieved, it is a more sustainable model over the longer term provided the junior pathways systems is constantly heavily priortised.

We have previously made quite a number of poor outside recruitment decisions which are still currently hurting us this year but this year we have started to finally make some better strategic outside recruitment decisions eg Verrills, Randall, Leeming, Stimson, Schoup and the jury is still out on Foran but the logic of his recruitment was well reasoned.

With 2 more years in development of our local recruitment to battle hard them for NRL, if we are not top 8 next year and top 4 in 2025, then yes we have concerns as a club but at this stage up to round 7 I am comfortable with where we are at considering the injuries we have had.

 

[willhelm]

Great analysis, WD. Agree completely.

 

[Hail Sezer]

That's an excellent post WD. Always respect you taking the time to explain your perspective.

Tend to agree wtih pretty much everything you're saying.

 

[gotitans101_]

I partially agree, although I don't think it all comes down to the forwards. Part of it IMO just came down to dumb footy IQ again. As much as I love Campbell, that kick before halftime which led directly to a Broncos try wasn't on. And then Foran's garbage kick near their line on 5th to start off the second half which led directly to another Broncos try just rubbed salt into the wound. Tanah handing the Broncos a 7-tackle set by kicking into their in-goal. etc etc etc. We just kept handing the Broncos possession and they took it with open arms. The momentum swung and we couldn't reel it back.

Whether having better bench forwards would have made any difference under all that sustained pressure and fatigue, I really don't know.

 

[Hail Sezer]

I partially agree, although I don't think it all comes down to the forwards. Part of it IMO just came down to dumb footy IQ again. As much as I love Campbell, that kick before halftime which led directly to a Broncos try wasn't on. And then Foran's garbage kick near their line on 5th to start off the second half which led directly to another Broncos try just rubbed salt into the wound. Tanah handing the Broncos a 7-tackle set by kicking into their in-goal. etc etc etc. We just kept handing the Broncos possession and they took it with open arms. The momentum swung and we couldn't reel it back.

Whether having better bench forwards would have made any difference under all that sustained pressure and fatigue, I really don't know.

That's probably why WD said "I am not saying this was the only reason for the 2nd half fade out but it was a large contributing factor."

He refers to the pressure on the middle of the field eventually putting pressure on both sides of the ball. Which is accurate at any level of football and a pretty savvy observation beyond the surface level of just the mistakes themselves.

 

[gotitans101_]

That's probably why WD said "I am not saying this was the only reason for the 2nd half fade out but it was a large contributing factor."

He refers to the pressure on the middle of the field eventually putting pressure on both sides of the ball. Which is accurate at any level of football and a pretty savvy observation beyond the surface level of just the mistakes themselves.

And that's why I said

Whether having better bench forwards would have made any difference under all that sustained pressure and fatigue, I really don't know.

Obviously you guys think it would have, fair enough. But hey, any chance to hit out at me hey.

 

[Hail Sezer]

And that's why I said

Obviously you guys think it would have, fair enough. But hey, any chance to hit out at me hey.

You also said

I partially agree, although I don't think it all comes down to the forwards.

Which is why I pointed out that it not coming all down to the forwards is what he'd said.

You then went on to pretty much explain the surface level things that can be attributed to sustained pressure on the middle, which is part of his post too.

Don't take it personally. It just looks like you had not understood or misread his post is all.

 

[Titanic]

Here’s the thing. We could run the same scrutiny over every team and still be endlessly debating interpretations of effort, skill, structure, systems, coaching, refereeing et al. Makes good reading even without the knicker twisting. Don’t lose your edge lads.

 

[McNaddy]

I have seats behind the Titans bench I looked down and saw Moe, Tino and Isaac sitting there I had a bad feeling. Tino and Liu do so much cleanup work in defence. Last season I couldn’t believe how poor Liu played for us. This year I have watched him carefully he just wins the tackle in defence and his ability to read play has allowed him to shut down many opportunities of our opponents. I think our biggest problem is when our bench comes on we loose the tackle allowing our opponents to gain a keep momentum. Erin just hasn’t progressed to where he needs to be so far this season and JV doesn’t seem to be up to it. Titans still carry developing player’s and selfish players who can be relied upon to make enough poor decisions to be fatal against stronger squads. When you see Reynolds, Hunt, DCE,Cleary etc kick we are lacking a quality long kicking option.

 

[Titanic]

Great observations Macca … JV’s gone and I agree that Clark is teetering and won’t survive when JJ returns. We really need a ball-playing 13 I reckon. Liu is honest but seems to be playing within himself.

 

[Gold Coast 88]

I have seats behind the Titans bench I looked down and saw Moe, Tino and Isaac sitting there I had a bad feeling. Tino and Liu do so much cleanup work in defence. Last season I couldn’t believe how poor Liu played for us. This year I have watched him carefully he just wins the tackle in defence and his ability to read play has allowed him to shut down many opportunities of our opponents. I think our biggest problem is when our bench comes on we loose the tackle allowing our opponents to gain a keep momentum. Erin just hasn’t progressed to where he needs to be so far this season and JV doesn’t seem to be up to it. Titans still carry developing player’s and selfish players who can be relied upon to make enough poor decisions to be fatal against stronger squads. When you see Reynolds, Hunt, DCE,Cleary etc kick we are lacking a quality long kicking option.

Lui had a couple of bad misses on the weekend thT lead to tries. One on one defence is poor, second man in is his style.

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Great observations Macca … JV’s gone and I agree that Clark is teetering and won’t survive when JJ returns. We really need a ball-playing 13 I reckon. Liu is honest but seems to be playing within himself.

Our attack has more options with Clark. His yards in attack is underrated. IMO the team is significantly stronger with Clark on the field.
Lui is at the end, he has Super League written all over him.

 

[Hail Sezer]

I have seats behind the Titans bench I looked down and saw Moe, Tino and Isaac sitting there I had a bad feeling. Tino and Liu do so much cleanup work in defence. Last season I couldn’t believe how poor Liu played for us. This year I have watched him carefully he just wins the tackle in defence and his ability to read play has allowed him to shut down many opportunities of our opponents. I think our biggest problem is when our bench comes on we loose the tackle allowing our opponents to gain a keep momentum. Erin just hasn’t progressed to where he needs to be so far this season and JV doesn’t seem to be up to it. Titans still carry developing player’s and selfish players who can be relied upon to make enough poor decisions to be fatal against stronger squads. When you see Reynolds, Hunt, DCE,Cleary etc kick we are lacking a quality long kicking option.

Spot on.

Liu is a good middle defender. He had a bad miss on Walsh on the weekend but week to week he's so valuable to that middle D. Detail oriented player who makes others jobs around him easier. His contact point and ability to control the contact is the best in our pack by a mile.

I think Iszac will end up being a solid middle defender based on effort and attention to detail alone but we're definitely losing a lot when both Tino and Liu are off the field at the same time. I love Clark's effort but he's a liability defensively in the middle.

 

[willhelm]

I’ve never rated Clark and likely never will. I don’t think he has “it”.

 

[Cowabunga]

Didn't Clark have like 2 good games last year at lock and every game got progressively worse to where he was bad?

I think Clark is a fine bench forward, don't know if he's got a higher ceiling. He should be just running the ball where as I think he's being told to be a playmaker when Liu comes off which he's trying to learn and also doesn't really suit, he should be a wrecking ball 95% of the time.

 

[Whats Doing]

Spot on.

Liu is a good middle defender. He had a bad miss on Walsh on the weekend but week to week he's so valuable to that middle D. Detail oriented player who makes others jobs around him easier. His contact point and ability to control the contact is the best in our pack by a mile.

I think Iszac will end up being a solid middle defender based on effort and attention to detail alone but we're definitely losing a lot when both Tino and Liu are off the field at the same time. I love Clark's effort but he's a liability defensively in the middle.

Whilst I accept your view that Lui is a good defender (although I think he does a lot of 3rd man in tackles and at times he arm grabs which has resulted in tries), his involvement in attack is down near the bottom this year.

In terms of runs made per match (9.5) he is ranked 15th and in terms of metres made per match he is also rated 15th (86). The 10th rated lock in terms of runs and metres made per match is 11.8 runs and over 119 metres made per match and as such Lui is a fair way behind even the 10th rated lock based purely on objective measures acknowleging that this does not include subjective matters

Most locks these days have the lock involved in linking the play but locks also have a requirement to do the hard yards and I would suggest that this is an aspect of Lui game which has really fallen off since the 2nd round and made only 4 runs for 22 metres against the Broncos which was clearly not good enough.

Whilst there is so many components that go into the winning matches, one analysis from left field is the correlation in the main ( a couple of outliers) between the involvement of the lock forward and the teams position on the ladder. The top 8 teams all have locks who have the most involvement in matches bar Manly who are 4th on the ladder but the lock involvement is down at 10. JT makes good metres and is ranked 3rd on metres made but his involvement in runs made is down to 9th.

The first 2 rounds Lui made an average of 13.5 runs per match and 133 metres per match but has since failed to make 10 runs or over 100 metres since. His first 2 rounds shows he can do it and as one of the highest paid players in the club, he needs to step up his performance in gaining yardage and not wear a dinner suit onto the field like he did against the Broncos.

You will see that the good locks (Yeo, Carrigan, Murray) do the hard yards in their own end of the field and then revert to the linking play in the oppositions half. They do this each and every game and this is the balance that Lui needs to do as well as he has shown he done so previously but needs to do it consistently and commensurately to what he is being paid

 

[Hail Sezer]

Whilst I accept your view that Lui is a good defender (although I think he does a lot of 3rd man in tackles and at times he arm grabs which has resulted in tries), his involvement in attack is down near the bottom this year.

In terms of runs made per match (9.5) he is ranked 15th and in terms of metres made per match he is also rated 15th (86). The 10th rated lock in terms of runs and metres made per match is 11.8 runs and over 119 metres made per match and as such Lui is a fair way behind even the 10th rated lock based purely on objective measures acknowleging that this does not include subjective matters

Most locks these days have the lock involved in linking the play but locks also have a requirement to do the hard yards and I would suggest that this is an aspect of Lui game which has really fallen off since the 2nd round and made only 4 runs for 22 metres against the Broncos which was clearly not good enough.

Whilst there is so many components that go into the winning matches, one analysis from left field is the correlation in the main ( a couple of outliers) between the involvement of the lock forward and the teams position on the ladder. The top 8 teams all have locks who have the most involvement in matches bar Manly who are 4th on the ladder but the lock involvement is down at 10. JT makes good metres and is ranked 3rd on metres made but his involvement in runs made is down to 9th.

The first 2 rounds Lui made an average of 13.5 runs per match and 133 metres per match but has since failed to make 10 runs or over 100 metres since. His first 2 rounds shows he can do it and as one of the highest paid players in the club, he needs to step up his performance in gaining yardage and not wear a dinner suit onto the field like he did against the Broncos.

You will see that the good locks (Yeo, Carrigan, Murray) do the hard yards in their own end of the field and then revert to the linking play in the oppositions half. They do this each and every game and this is the balance that Lui needs to do as well as he has shown he done so previously but needs to do it consistently and commensurately to what he is being paid

Yeah his attack sucks, no secret there

We're a team that scores points ok though so for now I'm more worried about prioritising what strong defensive pieces we have

 

[Whats Doing]

HS

Everything is inter connected and have correlations. Less involvement in hit ups means the workload is disproportionately shared resulting in those players doing the extra hit ups either coming off earlier and having less game time and brining on the bench middles earlier or leaving the starting middles on playing under fatigue and being less effective in defence and defensive leakages occur

Yes it is important to have good defensive players on a execution basis and defensive team structure basis but it is equally important that the forwards also share the workload in attack otherwise defensive individual and team defensive problems arises as indicated above.

 

[Hail Sezer]

HS

Everything is inter connected and have correlations. Less involvement in hit ups means the workload is disproportionately shared resulting in those players doing the extra hit ups either coming off earlier and having less game time and brining on the bench middles earlier or leaving the starting middles on playing under fatigue and being less effective in defence and defensive leakages occur

Yes it is important to have good defensive players on a execution basis and defensive team structure basis but it is equally important that the forwards also share the workload in attack otherwise defensive individual and team defensive problems arises as indicated above.

I know what you're trying to say but every team dynamic is different and ours has Tino, Mo and even Dave carrying for a higher proportion of the volume for a reason. Do Tino and Mo come off earlier and have less game time than they should? How many minutes would you like to see them playing?

 

[Cowabunga]

Liu is pretty much our 2nd halfback though.... He probably has way more passes then all those guys I'd assume and same with Clark who passes a lot. It's clearly part of the game plan, Whether you agree with that is a different story but when you have outside backs, Mo and Tino who are doing a bulk of the runs out of our own end, I don't really want Liu running the ball over those guys.

He's obviously not on the level of the guys you named, but those 3 guys are Aus players and freaks of nature and all much younger besides Yeo, They don't exactly grow on trees haha. He's 32 and played a lot of football at high levels. I think he's been much better this year with some bad misses.